If your true goal in your company is talent management and talent development, then you need to learn about emotional connection.
As we recognize that people have talents, we need to recognize that our effort lies in understanding what is it that we can do to provide a safe environment for people to use, expand, and nurture their talents.
In this podcast, we uncover the importance of using emotional connections to retain people.
Welcome to our podcast, The Leader in You, where we talk about how emotional connection can empower you at work and in your life. I'm Lola.
Hi, I'm Ramin. And we want to talk today a little bit about David's journey in emotional connection. So before we get going, before we get too far, let's just begin with that. David, tell us a little bit about your emotional connection journey. How did you come across this? We can start from there.
Thank you very much for welcoming me to this podcast. I'm super excited to be here. My journey started because I thought I was a great communicator as a manager, and it turns out that I wasn't. And I think people were giving me what I wanted to hear and that works at a certain level, but as you start to climb the ranks of management, you realize that it takes a little bit more skill than that. And I was running into several problems that seemed to be similar situations and that's when I realized it's probably not the individuals, it's probably me. So I started to seek out different ways of approaching. And that's when I ran across Dr. Lola at an HR conference and she was able to help me and explain to me that there is a different process and a different way of approaching your employees as well as your customers.
That's the story that we all know, David. I certainly have been over my career taught many times the lesson that what I think I am doing is not exactly what I'm doing or how I think I'm interacting with well, not exactly how I am interacting. So I think these are humbling moments, but it seems to me that you took that moment and you've taken that extra step of learning about how to change that. And I think that is the critical factor. Isn't it, Lola? What we're doing in emotional connection is really for individuals and people who are interested in sort of taking that next step and, and looking a little bit more than perhaps they're used to.
Yes. And it's often we think that the problem lies outside and we can change outside, but most importantly, we can start with ourselves and change the way how we look at things, how we respond to things. And I think what David has shared in terms of that he thought he was a good communicator, but he found out that he wasn't. And I think he'll tell more about his journey, but the way we find out when we are not effective is that we are not getting the results we want. Right? That's when we start to notice that.
Right. So, David to continue on your journey, tell us what happened next?
I didn't really like the process to be honest with you. I mean I didn't think that emotions had anything to do with the workplace. And it was very, very difficult for me to come to terms with that. That's completely not the case. And once we get through the emotions, then we can actually get into what I would deem the meat and potatoes of the problem. So, what I found out was actually the meat and potatoes were the emotions. And I was trying to think like, how is it that this EMC process has benefited me most? Because I hear from so many people that emotions have nothing to do and have no place in the workplace unless you're in HR. Hence why I met Dr. Lola. I did. So I was on this journey of thinking that the emotional connection wasn't an important piece to resolving conflict, but I still felt that it was an important piece to the work environment, just not to resolving conflict.
Right. It's a common thing. So, Lola, I mean you hear this a lot from people that emotions have no place in the workplace or, you know, why are we talking about emotions? Um, how do you know, just initially get people to kind of listen to you, listen to themselves, literally, I think the bottom line, how do you kind of get them over the hump?
I think by seeing the results that what they're using currently is not producing or not going in the direction they want. And looking at the new way, maybe recognizing that the underlying cause of their ineffectiveness is that they're not addressing emotions. This one has been in my experience, either working with team engagement or leadership effectiveness, or even organizational culture, you can see that people are creating these training programs and they feel like they're learning some skill, but the problem becomes is when people get emotional, those skills go out the window and they don't know how to do those skills. So it's very important to realize that emotion is the most powerful thing in the room, and it is also the most powerful agent of change. So once we learn how to work with emotions, uh, we can recognize it and make space for it and, uh, really create a better environment for everybody to learn and grow.
Right. So, David, how did she grab you finally, you know, so you didn't like the process at the beginning. You wondered what, what emotions have to do with it and your peer group, which, uh, which for all of us, you know, our, our friends, our colleagues are an important, um, determinant of what, what we engage in was telling you what the emotions have to do with anything had to do with work. So kind of what captured you, that, where you started to see that emotion as you put it. And I love the way you put it is the meat and potatoes of everything. It's not actually something just on the side. So how did you get there?
I remember how the process was going and then at a certain point, there was like a turning point and I'm like, that's it? Dr. Lola said, "That's it." And now I can go and deal with the issue with the employee one-on-one. She doesn't need to be there for the content. And I was very shocked at that, the way the employee interpreted my actions. And what I was saying to them, I thought I was being funny. I thought I was being witty and they thought I wanted to fight them. And I was just absolutely in shock at the impression that the employee had. And then once we kind of got through it and we came to an understanding that the employee and I got along very well.
What was that insight, David, do you remember that you got that moment where you kind of got it from what she was telling you in that first conversation? Do you remember the insight?
Yeah, it wasn't my content. It was my approach.
I see. Yeah. I had a similar experience with Lola when I kind of had the same thing. And for me, it was when I realized that this struggle that other people were having, made me think about the fact that they're actually struggling also for the connection. It wasn't just me. So, you know, and of course, I've had many more insights as, as things have gone along and, uh, and pretty much wonder how it is that I actually did anything for all the years before I, I met Lola. So probably a lot of people feel that way, I bet. So, continue with your journey. So how did, uh, so that meeting went well with the employee, and so that must have been reaffirming for you.
You could tell the employee was on his way out, whether it was gonna be through us or through him, he was making moves in my opinion that he was gonna be leaving the company. But after we had our connection, he became my right-hand man, and he and I had a very strong connection and bond. And even his wife who was working for the organization at the time in a different department was surprised. And she came to me and she's said, I don't know what you and Steven did, but he's much happier here. Thank you so much. And that's when I was like, I didn't really do very much, I let Dr. Lola run the session, but when I was done with it, and then the feedback that I got, it was so much more simple than having to discipline, fire, and rehire the employee.
This is so much the case where the person in leadership positions in companies and organizations, I'm often presented with these situations where someone needs to just go, they say this, you know, someone comes to me and say, well, so and so is got to go. And, and then I need your HR department to begin the process and put things together and kind of, you know, dot the eyes and cross the T so that they, they can, they can, they can go. And, unfortunately, that's almost always the wrong approach. Not, maybe it is possible that sometimes people are the wrong person for a job, or maybe this is no longer what they wanna do that's possible, but why not leave on better terms and why not leave on connected terms?
I think people who’ve experienced a safe connection with their manager have a big advantage. And research says that they're more likely to be productive, more collaborative, and more engaged. They're more likely to have a better sense of themselves. And they're more likely to be empathic with people that they work with. They're more likely to build happy work relationships. Well, of course, they are because they've got a model, they know what a good relationship feels like. So, when David has a map to help his employee to be vulnerable and respond to that vulnerability in a safe way, he creates a certain, it's more than expectations, It's almost like a visceral map for what this is supposed to feel like. It’s a visceral map of what relationships are supposed to look like and what it feels like when you are vulnerable in moments of stress. It's like the emotional connection is a gift that keeps on giving when you know what it feels like, then you're better at putting your hand on it in the world because you have a template, you have a map of how you expect to be treated and what you are looking for in your relationship with your team. So when people feel like their boss cares about them and they know what that feels like, then they can go out and be the best version of themselves becomes a possibility. And when it isn't, many of us have no idea. We don't know what we're looking for. We don't want to say it because it may be upsetting to somebody else, or we don’t want people to turn away from us. But the bottom line is I think that people are seeking out people to connect with and when they can’t they start to act all wired and not themselves. So we kind of gets stuck. But the bottom line is that I think people are just seeking out connections with each other, especially when they work together. And when they can't do that, they start to act in all different ways that create a terrible relationship.
Let's talk a little about this. How can we break that negative cycle because it happens in so many organizations? And, unfortunately, it is an expectation, or, maybe said in a different way, it is understood to be the way the business is done. So, we're going uphill with a lot of this stuff, kind of a little of de-programing. And maybe, David, you could talk a little bit about this word that Lola and I use in some other conversations, about this kind of de-programming that one has to go through to be really to be open to understanding emotions. And, maybe you can talk about the kind of de-programing you had to go through or you are still working through in your company.
Well, the big thing was I had to realize that when the other person is triggered, usually that means I'm triggered or vice versa.
Can you stop right there? And tell me a little bit more about that, because this is, this is really important. So when somebody else is triggered you didn't know that that also triggers you. And once you learned that you got some, is that right?
Yes. So, once I understood that I realized that I need help. That's a moment where I need help. And the help at first was calling Dr. Lola and then her processing my emotions. Oftentimes it was, it didn't involve a session between myself and the employee, but it just involved me. And then once I was able to process my emotions, I was able to then put myself in that employee's shoes and really understand from their perspective. But that was very difficult because before it was just blaming and shaming, this isn't a good employee, they're not understanding me. And, and obviously at that moment, as I'm saying it I'm triggered, but it took me a little while to realize that. Now what I do is, which Dr. Lola taught me so well, is just slow it down. It's just the simple pausing and understanding of what's happening so that it's not such a reactionary response.
This is really an excellent point. And I think it's one that is worth having, Lola sort of being a little bit more emphatic about which is this notion that we have an impact on others that I think it's interesting because we sort of know it intellectually. We know it, I'm the boss, there's their employee. I'm the employee, they're the boss, and I'm peers. We work together, I do this part and they do that part. We kind of intellectually know it, but I think it's very, uh, interesting when we observe and realize that actually the way we do ourselves with the way we act with the way we do things we impact, we impact other people.
I'll give you kind of a, a more superficial example that, um, one of my kind of approaches every day is when I walk into the office, when I walk into, you know, the building, even I am whistling, I'm kind of happy, very energized. That's just the way I do it every day. And, and there was a day when I was quite upset. I was angry about something that had happened. I was in my head thinking and I walked in and just, you know, kind of said hello, to the guard at the front desk and went up to my office and said, hello, and kind of shut the door. And I was trying to solve a problem. I wasn't angry with those people, but I was kind of angry in my head and I shut the door and I was working. And by the middle of the day, I had two of my direct reports, very senior people come in to sort of doing an intervention. And, I said, what's, what's wrong. And they said everyone is upset. The whole place is worried that something is seriously wrong. And I said, well, what have we, is there something happened while I had the door closed? And they said, no, you're, you are not whistling when you came in. I said, oh, because my whistling was a sign that everything is okay. And, and, you know, and this occurred in the middle of a very difficult external environment of, of a tremendous kind of external upheaval. So my, my whistling was their way. So I, I don't think we, we realize that as managers, that we have that impact, but more so we don't realize the emotional impact that we have. Maybe, Lola, you can tell us a little bit about that.
Well, that's a great example. I mean, how sensitive we become on just little things like whistling, or just even saying hello or seeing somebody's, uh, smile on their face while we are attuned to each other, because we depend on each other and whether we like it or not, or even aware of not our mammalian brains, which is the emotional part of our brain tunes in into those moments of signals, that, that, uh, we, we project to each other. Our facial expressions and the words we say, the tone of voice, tunes in, in a very high sensitive way because of our need for connection. Our longing for connection with the people that we depend on is a part of our survival code. So if I'm getting a signal emotional signal from you, you see me, you, you acknowledge me, you value me, my brain becomes calmer, but if I see you suddenly you walk by and you don't say anything, or you just say hi, uh, with, and I don't know what's happening with you, I start to suddenly feel like there's something wrong, there's something wrong with us, and my emotional brain becomes alarmed. And now all kinds of different things that come up in our, in our thoughts, you know, makes the story on what's happening. So as you can imagine from you not whistling and not saying hello, everybody starts adding to the story, of what could have been happening. So by the end of the day, the story, the little story becomes a huge problem, and everybody's worried now. I think one of the things that organizations are not paying attention to closely is disengagement. On a daily basis, I don't think, uh, leaders are really, really paying attention to how do we bring, um, back people who are disengaged? What do we do? We just leave them alone. We don't know how to deal with that.
I think that's a really important point. David, what do you think about disengagement? Is it sort of like active conflict? We are used to it, we see it. We're gonna do something about it as managers, but disengagement is kind of passive it's, uh, is maybe hidden even under a bunch of people who smile at each other at the meeting, but you must have that in your, in your group. And what I'm, I guess what I want to say, sort of pivot the conversation is how are you being more deliberate in everything that you do as a result of having learned emotional connection and taking on that disengaged employee in a positive way.
This is exactly the experience that I had with Dr. Lola. I didn't know that I said something in passing and it really affected him in a negative way, because it was in front of other employees. I didn't know. He didn't say anything to me. All of a sudden he just became disengaged. And I approached him. I spoke with Dr. Lola, she processed my emotions and I tried to reengage with this employee and I couldn't and he wasn't receptive to it when I approached him, I talked with Dr. Lola. She said, do you think he'd do a session with me? So a third party, which is what I think HR usually does. And so I said, I don't know, I'll ask. And I approached him and I said, I'm trying to become a better manager. And I'm not understanding sometimes I may make mistakes in my communication. I'm working with a coach. Would you be willing to come on with her so that I can understand a little bit better where our disconnection is? And he surprisingly was very eager to resolve the issue because he also did not like coming to the work environment, where it was so stressful and he was not engaged.
David, let me compliment you on the fact that you kind of took it upon yourself to do something about this, but the fact that you began the conversation by saying that it is you who is seeking a better way of being, it is you who is engaging a coach. I think that's an enormous point of vulnerability, which, you know, I hope by the fact that we're doing these podcasts and people hopefully will listen to them, is that when you are vulnerable at the right moment, you are able to engage people in a whole different way. You could have approached this in many different ways. You could have said, look, you need some help. Here's somebody to work with. That's, that's usually the way people do it. Or, we both need help, or the fact that here's a third person, why don't you talk to them? And, and maybe they'll tell me what I don't hear from you. Any of these kinds of approaches I've seen, but in your case, you've sort of said, look, I'm trying to be a better manager. And, uh, I'm working with someone. Would you be willing to talk with them so that it will help me? And I think that's wonderful. So Lola, wait, let's pick it up with you. What did you tell this person when you met with them?
Well, following our process, the emotional connection, is obviously to create safety, just to make space for them and to hear their experience made a huge difference for this person to, to be heard, to be valued. When we create space for people to share their experiences, they start to feel valued.
Can I stop you for one second, Lola, because this is an important point. People might not understand that you are not taking the side of this person. You're not, you are not engaged in the content of what's going on, correct? You're asking the individual or the individuals if you're working with two people or more than to talk about their emotional experience, which is always valid because that's their experience. This is important because I think people are concerned that when a third party is involved or in the scenario that David outlined, I can see some manager saying, oh, well of course this person is going tell this third party, their whole grievances and everything else. Right. I want this fixed and I want that fixed and whatever, but that's not what you did. You didn't engage in that content. Not that the content is not important, but that's not, was not your role. Your role was to kind of validate their emotional experience. Is that right?
Yes. And that's the first step in the process is to create safety and alliance with each individual who is part of the process. So obviously taking sides or blaming one person or the other is not going to create that safety. Nobody wants to be the bad guy. Although, in any conflict, I think the, uh, kind of the end result is it's not my fault, it's his fault or her fault. And, uh, we always want to find the bad guy, but in this process is really creating that understanding and safety and bringing people on one side is like, we are really fighting the negative pattern that you guys got stuck in verses you are fighting each other. And that creates a lot of emotional safety for people.
Thank you. So, David, so now, this individual met with Lola, I assume you had a kind of a together session. the two of you?
You know, at first, one very important step was that Dr. Lola went through and processed my emotions. So in order for me to understand and put myself in that person's shoes and to be able to go to them and be vulnerable, first, I had to understand where they were coming from. And once I was heard, even though I wasn't heard by the individual, I was just heard, it made it so much easier for me to then understand what that person must be going through. And it was simple at that point then for me to approach them and say, I'm working with a coach I'd really like for us to reconnect. Is there any way that to, for me to be a better manager, is there any way that you can come to, to the call with us and, and go through a session.
In the beginning, exactly what you said happens is the person wants to immediately go into content and the grievances and, especially, if you're involving an HR manager, it's very stressful for a manager, you know, for me, for a person in my position. But because I went through with Dr. Lola, she was able to process my emotions and I knew how the process was going, I just sat back and listened. And I knew that because Dr. Lola's purpose was not to address the content but to give the person a form for them to feel comfortable, eventually it would get to the actual root cause of the problem, which was the emotional disconnection. So at first, it was like, he's doing this, he's doing that, he's doing that, I just sat very quietly and watched the process unfold until Dr. Lola led him into discussing how he feels and how I make him feel my interactions, how I make him feel and how it impacts him and his ability to perform his duties.
Were you surprised by anything you were hearing?
Oh yes, I was. In no way did I think that it was because I was making these sarcastic comments? My family and my culture are like sarcasm is no problem, especially, with other males. I didn't think it was any problem, but I thought it was something else, I thought he just had a bad attitude. He, his skillset, wasn't where he was at. He was trying to take advantage of the company. Maybe he felt that another employee was promoted above him. I had every excuse other than me. And so when I sat down and I'm listening at first, it was like, he talks to me wrong. And he does this to this person. All of the things that I thought he was confirmed at the beginning. That was content. And then I just sat and I listened and Dr. Lola got right into the emotions. And when he said the things like, I feel like when he approaches me, he's beating me up with my words. When I heard that I had heard that before. So it was like a trigger for me. I'm like, oh, oh my goodness, here it is. I've heard this before. He's confirmed that it's me and it's him and I and our emotions. And I triggered him. And that was a revelation for me, almost immediately. He was in tears. I, and he's twice the size of me. I've never seen this man, this emotional. And I'm sitting by him in a very small stature compared, and he's literally crying, beside me. And it was a very powerful experience.
Such a powerful experience. Lola, is that something you experience when you're working with people that there are these kinds of big aha moments and surprises that people feel it's, are we really that out of tune with our own emotions? Or how we make other people feel?
I think we are. I mean, unfortunately, to say that I really don't think that we recognize the depth of our impact and the aha moments happen every time when I do the session. And I think this process helps me to create enough safety for people to go into the depth and show their vulnerability. This is where the aha moments happen is when people are able to be vulnerable and say, this is how it impacts me. As David was sharing his story, I remember sitting in a group of four people. And one was sharing saying, when you yell at me, I feel like you have a stick. And you're just hitting me with that stick. As this person was saying this, he was looking down, he couldn't even look up at the person who was yelling. And as he said it, and then he raised his eyes, the person was crying, her tears were just rolling down her chicks because they made such a huge impact on her.
It's very powerful what you went through David and what you were doing, Lola, is incredibly powerful. I do wonder why, you know, for people who try to be so conscious, most of the people you work with, Lola, and most, and David, you are obviously a good example. And, and most of us try to be very conscious. We try to be very deliberate in the way, we interact with people. We try to be positive. I know there are people out there who somehow went to the John Wayne school of management, and they think the way you do it, you just sort of, kind of beat people up. And then the sort of things happen. But most of us are not that, but yet, as Lola said, we are so unaware of ourselves and our impact on other people, that it's alarming. This is why, I think, since the times of the ancients, it's been said that the travel, the trip inward, the journey inward is the hardest of all journeys is the most difficult, most arduous, most w with perils and also the most rewarding, but what you still gotta get through the dangers first, before you can get to the rewards, but you said something David, I wanted to see if you would add a little bit more to it, or if Lola would be adding a little bit more to it. Being heard, being heard, I have certainly understood this to be very important. Why is being heard so important to our brain?
For me, the reason why being heard is so important is because I'm in my own head, justifying whatever my actions are and what I'm doing, and why this employee does not fit in my culture. That's what I'm doing in my head. But as I'm speaking and I'm going through the process, this is what allows me to understand it's not just that individual, it's me. And when I'm calling Dr. Lola, I'm calling because I'm convinced her process is not going to work. I'm actually calling her to prove her wrong. And every time it turns out, you know what, Ramin, it's me, I've either been triggered or caused the trigger. I'm just as important and involved in this situation as the other person whom I'm thinking is my problem, and, and that's for me, one thing that I've, I've really realized.
This is really great, David, I love the revelation that you've been having in terms of that you play a part in it. And I think this is the key. Every interaction is like a dance and emotion is the music of the dance. If you are not dancing together to the same music, then you are hurting each other, you are hitting each other, and you're missing each other in that respect. Through the attachment lens, if we look at the relationship, we want to feel like we matter to people, and we want to feel valued. We want to feel that the other person cares about us and through emotional responsiveness, when we create that space for people to understand their emotions, we create that channel. We are going into the channel of emotions, where their amygdala becomes calm and relaxed. And at that moment, when their amygdala becomes calm and relaxed, then our brain function works at a higher level. And then we can be open to the suggestion and to even rational thinking. It's very often that they see that when people are disconnected and feeling very stressed, they have tunnel vision, they only see one way and that's the only way they see they're not open to the other person's experience. They can't even see other options. So once they feel heard at an emotional level, at an emotional channel, now you can talk to them about rational things.
And I think, you know, one of the things that I've learned from you is during the very first opening lines of any conflict or any conversation, actually, 'I am sorry" part is less valuable than 'I hear you' part. And I think that is kind of, you know, just that change. It seems to me that while the science behind this is very deep and the process can only be, um, done well, if you keep practicing it, in some ways the concept is not rocket science. The concept is basically wired into our brains already. We don't actually have to know anything other than what we already know. We were born with the idea that we depend on each other. We connect with each other, we need to connect with each other. And that connection is important. And one of the funny things, at least I find about myself is that where we, where I can easily pretend I don't need to depend on that person. And, and so intellectually, I think I kind of work my way there, but emotionally I'm being tugged back into, um, you know, Danny conman, who is a Nobel prize, uh, winning, uh, economist and the father of behavioral economics. He often talks about the fact that our kind of emotional brain, our, our system one, um, uh, actually never goes to sleep. It's there 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 is, is never gone. Thus, we may think that we are doing brain thinking. We're thinking with our kind of system to our, our, our logic, but system one is in charge always. And so we actually have to appear to, and that's, I think that's what you do, Lola.
As we try to wrap up a little bit, I'm just wondering if you would, David, think about maybe two or three things you would, uh, suggest to our listeners, uh, that they can deliberately do in their upcoming conversations, future conversations or things you tell yourself, like, you know, maybe things you have put on your wall that you, you try to remember. I've got one that says, listen, more, talk less, but I don't follow it very well. So, um, but you must have a kind of a list in your head as you've been doing this. And then maybe Lola, if you could finish the program by telling us your few points list. So go ahead, David.
Well, again, thank you very much for bringing me on. I really appreciate I could share all day. So I completely understand why we have to wrap it up. One of the things that I really appreciate with this program, and I really wanna mention is that I now have, uh, a new tool. And so, yes, we still have the corporate disciplinary programs that we all have to go through and work when we work for a corporation. However, I now have a tool to reconnect with employees and keep them so where my first reaction before was, I gotta get rid of them. It's now I have to, can I get them through an emotional, uh, con uh, focus, connection session with me? And if I can, um, if I can get them in that process with me, then maybe I have a chance to save them. And the first thing that I do when I feel that way is slow it down.
When I'm frustrated or I'm triggered, or I feel like I want I'm on the other end of the text message, and I'm just going through it, I put my phone down, and I close my laptop. I walk around the building. I come back in and take a few breaths. I come back in and that right there, that's slowing things down. Usually, I'm still getting text messages from the other individual, and I can see that they're also slowing things down as well. So if I could recommend the first step to this process, slow things down. It's not an emergency. Just relax, and try your best to calm down before you approach the person. Because I feel like we don't feel that we're emotional, but in the heat of the moment, that's why it's called the heat of the moment.
I love David's suggestion and slowing down is so hard. I remember before learning this process and going even through it myself it was so difficult for me to slow things down. It's like my emotions would take over and control me. I needed to respond to the email at this moment and that's it. And then when I hit said, I say like, oh, now I'm relaxed. But then I think to myself, oh, I should have said that. Or I could have said this. So I think just knowing to slow things down is really difficult. And going through the process, it becomes easier to slow things down to understand your emotions, to articulate, to even name emotions, to share with somebody else who is, who is there to help you to reach out. This is fantastic. Uh, suggestions, slowing things down, and learning about emotions will help you to get there.
So that's great because, uh, actually just to affirm the slowing down Abraham Lincoln is famous for having had a desk, uh, a, a desk drawer full of letters that he wrote in the heat of the moment, um, to all types of people who were, um, uh, who were, who he was either upset with is appointed with angry. What have you, those, those letters were never sent, but they were written beautifully, but they were written and put in the drawer. And, and that, uh, uh, while he didn't go through Lola process, he must have gone through some kind of process because as conflicts arose in the middle of, uh, legislative sessions or, or elsewhere, he would slow things down by telling a story. He would just go into story mode. He would literally put his hands, put his head between his two hands and he would lean forward and he would start a story.
And the idea of the story was to slow things down, to get, to go through an emotional process through, to let a lot of people go through the emotional process so that when they got to the end of it, there was a good feeling from the story, and then they could resume their, their, their conversation. So, um, so Lola, you may have had an early convert, um, a long time ago, but, uh, just didn't know that this was the idea, but thank you very much, uh, David for joining us. And, uh, and I think the greatest lesson we learned, not just from, uh, from, from Lola's work, but just from your practical experience, David is that before we go down this road of, uh, of getting rid of people, if our true goal in our corporation is talent management and talent development, then we have to say that that person is a talent. And thus, we should put the effort into understanding what is it we are doing that may not be providing a safe environment for that person to play that talent. That is a valid question. And, uh, and one that should be asked more often. So thank you very much, uh, David for joining us, and thanks, Lola for all your great insight. And, uh, we will talk with you all again in our next podcast.
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